Is There Really Going to be Another Crypto Ban in India?

I’m really intrigued when talking with people from other countries about Bitcoin and blockchain technology. I feel like their perspective on life and how they perceive the world is so much more realistic than mine. I say this because I’ve had what many in the world would consider the luxury of being an American, born and raised. With each conversation had in this space with people from other countries, it becomes apparent: the more marginalized a society and its people are, the faster they see how Bitcoin and blockchain tech can give them power and control over their finances, privacy, and security. These are things I feel we not only take for granted here in the US, but are also not as much in our control as we have been led to believe. Former Amazon developer Ashish Singhal, CEO and Co-Founder CRUXPay and CoinSwitch.co — two Indian crypto ventures,  joined us to shed light on a potential cryptocurrency ban and regulations by the Indian Supreme Court, how people are dealing with Covid there, and his days as a professional (ethical) hacker! We also learn how cryptocurrencies are viewed by the general public in India, as opposed to the United States. As an American, you might not care too much what happens in other countries, but the world is more connected than ever before. Legal decisions made in other countries on new currencies and technologies that have no borders or boundaries, could influence what regulatory decisions are made here at home.

This transcript was made with AI, that's why we may appear to be artificially intelligent.

SPEAKERS

Elsa Ramon, Bill Deignan, Ashish Singhal

Elsa Ramon  00:04

All right, thank you guys for coming back Bill and I very much appreciate it that you're coming back to so what about crypto? And I think lately I don't know, Bill I, I've been feeling like here at home in the United States. There are two now very distinct schools of thought about what's going on with COVID. And everything. I know in in Georgia where you are different mindset possibility, possibly, then you know where I am in California. But I feel like people here in California are just, I don't know, I think there's this sense of, of a false sense of security a little bit about COVID. I think people are so desperate to get back to normal that they're just kind of overlooking the fact that we're still in not out of the woods just yet. So I don't know what it's, like

Bill Deignan  01:05

It's certainly the same here. Yeah, it's certainly the same here. And, you know, just even, we have varying degrees of that even, you know, within our family and with among our friends and with, you know, business, you know, cohorts just people have different ideas on where we are, you know, Georgia is the area where the governor open things up, probably more quickly than most states. And, you know, and I personally, am glad of that. Simply because, you know, you know, I tend to, I don't trust what our government says, quite honestly. That's sometimes, you know, nefarious on some people's parts, and sometimes it's just they don't have the data. And I just, I get this a lot from, you know, some friends will complain to me is like, Well, you know, one thing says one thing, you know, one, you know, one bit of like news and the other says the complete opposite and Unlike Yes, so how do we know what to believe? And yet in the same conversation, though, we'll have different judgments on what one person should or shouldn't be doing. And, you know, I tend to finally reach a conclusion of Well, how do you even know what decision to make? How can you judge me? When you just admitted that nobody knows what the truth is? So that's making it real hard for a lot of people and, you know, even just with relationships, you find those become strained and just how each other react to what one or one person may or may not have done and what they're, you know, whether they're going out or wearing a mask or Right, right, going to places that other people don't feel you should be doing yet. So, yeah, stuff like that. We're all going through that, you know, and I happen to even be speaking to my pastor this morning about that. And, you know, as a church, we're trying to figure out, you know, or, you know, as their church leadership is trying to navigate this idea that, you know, they call it just like a like a stop light here in the nited states has, you know, yellow, red and green. People are looking at the COVID sort of reopening in the same way some people are if they're, if they're a red person, so to speak, they're just someone who's probably pretty afraid to get out and about. And then there's other people that are yellows who are cautious, but still venturing out. And then there's greens, who probably fall more in that camp where I'm, you know, I'm out and about and living my life. But at the same time, you know, where my wife and kids and I were pretty healthy and we don't have underlying conditions. And I have other family members who are dealing with, you know, multi Gen, multi generational homes. And, you know, we're happy. Yeah, we're happy to hear that yesterday that our schools are going to open up for in person if we want to, but they can. You can also opt to have your child taught.

Elsa Ramon  03:59

Nice compromise. I think that's a nice compromise. I'm probably somewhere in the yellow light I'm venturing out, but I'm cautious. You know, I know that our gyms open here in California, but I'm giving that a couple  eeks, because and then yo  have even without

Bill Deignan  04:18

coke? Yeah, you got to make your own call right. And quite honestly we're you know I had we had friends that are immediately like how are you dare to dare going to send your kids back to school? Well, our response was, were pretty healthy and we don't have an elderly parent living in the home. Now maybe maybe you do. But so we're making that decision based on what we think is best for our family, I think but it's difficult for sure. And you kn0w, so

Elsa Ramon  04:43

 I always wonder outside of our bubble in the United States because we are very much as Americans in a bubble, in my opinion. So I'm really curious to see how people in other parts of the world I know you are too are dealing with COVID and what the thoughts are There, among other things, obviously we want to find out the thoughts about crypto and Bitcoin and blockchain and all that. But we have with us today, Ashish Singhal, and he is with a company called coin switch in India. So Ashish, welcome, welcome to so what about crypto? And I don't know. Yeah. We intentionally left the question mark off of the title of our podcast because we want to leave that up to interpretation for our guests. And for listeners to say it the way it makes them feel, you know, their interpretation of what it is. So I want to thank you, Bill. Thank you because we had some timezone challnges. Yeah. And I'm on the west coast. So you and I have the extremes and Bill times he's right in the middle. he's doing he's doing okay. pretty early f

Bill Deignan  06:02

Greetings to all you in India. Yeah. And honestly, when COVID started, I think I've had a heart for people in India more than any other country. And without knowing much about your country. 

Ashish Singhal  06:16

Yeah. So I think a lot of people had that reaction. Given that, you know, we are a developing country doesn't have have a large set of population, but doesn't have the health health infrastructure that we need. Right. Right. So a lot of people had the worst case scenario what what happens when COVID reaches India? And you know, that's what we have seen today.

Bill Deignan  06:39

Yeah. So I was just, I found it remarkable that your prime minister essentially shut the country down within like four hours. That must have been terrifying.

Ashish Singhal  06:51

 So we've been used to these decisions of, you know, extreme decision. So you if you remember, you know, I think Three years back or two years back, the D monetization, where are the entire 500 and thousand rupee currency notes were banned all of a sudden. So but this is, you know, one of the health crisis and it's amazing that our government was able to take such a quick action and, you know, implement such a good lockdown. The results of it are still yet to be known. The cases are, you know, growing in India, day by day and states are opening up. Again, to be honest, I'm a little scared at this point, because our health system are at peak already. Right. And it hasn't even reached the levels that we have seen in us. Right. So, so it's a little scary situation out there, but hopefully, you know, some states are doing a very, very good job including Bangalore cannot come in Bangalore. Bangalore is where I am. So, Bangalore is doing an amazing job in contact tracing and, you know, stopping it early. at the stage where it's not spread to a lot of people out there, right and we're tracking those people down locking them on home quarantines or external quarantines and making sure that the other people around them are tested and are safe in this situation

Elsa Ramon  08:20

You sound like you're having some of the situations that we're having here in the United States bill where there's some states and their governors of our states are requiring people to wear masks like here in California, our governor has said it's mandatory for people to to wear masks when they're out in public, other states, their governors are choosing the complete opposite. So it must be a bit difficult to try to between states in India control that too. Because you can't stop people from you know, moving about the country and the second most populous country in the entire world. 

Bill Deignan  09:01

But here's, here's what kind of blew my mind about it. And you know, for all my misgivings about the US government. I felt like they at least did one thing, right. And then that was I think they prepared us mentally for it. Like, every two or three days, your brain was starting to process a new idea about COVID. And what the possibilities, good and bad may be mainly bad. So I think as a culture here in the United States, we sort of needed to be eased into the idea that there might be a lockdown. And I think that was the right move, because I think if they had in the United States at least, just said, all of a sudden one day everything is shut down. There have been a wreck. Is it is it is it this is it is it a cultural mindset difference, perhaps that India was able to just sort of had to have this abrupt lockdown, or maybe we just didn't know that you guys were being sort of You know, led slowly down that road as well, but we didn't weren't aware

Ashish Singhal  10:04

So our descent into lockdown was a little extreme than what what happened in us. But we were we got a notice of about a week where we, you know, we did a lockdown of just one day, you know, and the government was trying to see how that lockdown was effect was it effective? Was there a need of a government lockdown or you know, a lockdown with if just notifying the the people out there and they do it themselves? Right? They realize that that's not possible in India, having such a large population and a lot of people are, you know, like the day laborers, right? They earn their salary on the work that they do on that particular day. Can't live without if there is a lockdown, right. So a lot of different factors need to be taken care and but ultimately the government went when with the right intentions. If you are asked me to lock everything down and try to solve each and every situation as and when they faced, right, because it's not easy to lock such a big country down and have already thought of every single use case, every single issue that may come up, right. So obviously, it was terrible for a lot of people. But as for me, it was the right steps, it would have been obviously better. But, you know, that was the need we have.

Elsa Ramon  11:30

Well, you know, India has almost a billion and a half people. I don't have to tell you, you know, almost 18% of the world's population, and that's gotta be on people's minds when you have such a populated country, with COVID going through the country like that. The fear, possibly fear of this spreading so fast. Would you say people were Much more receptive to the lockdown and, and the kind of open ended timeline that that we're all kind of looking at right now?

Ashish Singhal  12:11

So people were uncomfortable as well, but most of the people took it at face value because they believe in the government and you know, they are doing assuming that they are doing the right thing. And everybody understood the health crisis and everybody understands that in India. You know, the healthcare system is not meant to deal with a situation like covert right. Obviously, none of the country has had that. But some countries are far ahead. and India is not one of them. Right? So everybody understands that our healthcare system cannot take care of so many people at the same time, right. So we needed to flatten the curve at the right moment. And once it gets out, it's out there right. There is no precaution that there is nothing that you can do to actually stop it. from growing right, it will go through its own course. You know, blocking down everything in its path. Right. So So, yeah, so I it was extreme, but it we I think the government did the right thing and you know managing it well, although the cases are still growing and still a concern that you know that lockdown was not as effective at as it should, should have been.

Elsa Ramon  13:29

Well, it's interesting you say that that you feel the government made the right choice and and that there's general trust in the government. But when it comes to crypto, it's not necessarily the same opinion among Indian people. 

Ashish Singhal  13:49

Yes. So, crypto is a difficult topic in India. And I understand the government point as well. Any new financial entity that comes into the market, which is this volatile, bound to attract, you know, the nefarious minds and scams. So the government just wants to keep people safe. Right. And there are two extremes to it. One is, you know, shut down everything. The other is to come up with the right set of regulations, and making sure these things doesn't happen, which a lot of countries, including us has taken. Right. So it's unfortunate that the government earlier had chosen to go the old banned way and rather than helping the crypto community grow and see the potential of it, and looking at the positive sides of it as well, and they focus too much on the negative side and, you know, try to take an entire ban. Hope, you know, luckily, Supreme Court understood the realities and held held in March, you know, reverting that ban and helping crypto traders and crypto companies To start innovating in India again, right, there are still some outlines of it still today, but hopefully it will be positive news that is coming out of India very, very soon. And you know, in the coming years India would become one of the, one of the hotspots of, you know, crypto community.

Bill Deignan  15:21

 Yeah. Well being as a CEO of two crypto companies in India, do you find that you're getting involved on the government level as a lobbyist or, you know, maybe consulting with Parliament? To what degree are you having to get involved there to help them understand, you know, maybe the best move forward?

Ashish Singhal  15:44

Sure. So, we have a association called imi I am Ei R which basically talks to government or, you know, deliver government the message by drink by you know, Having every crypto company in India or most of the crypto companies in India and having hearing their thoughts, so I my fingers out, you know, these are the right set of regulations that should come out, which helps the user as well as the crypto community in India to help it grow. Right. And they communicate the same things to the government to the ministers and to the government bodies. Right. I To be honest, I don't have any personal say or a personal, you know, meeting the highest with the with with the government officials to help them explain my case. But how it is happening in India is that through imi all the crypto community communities are giving their views and they are the one compiling these views and sharing with the government in the hopes of that, you know, they understand the need of crypto in India, and they come up with the right set of regulations. regulations are very important that nobody denies that Right user protection should be at the top most of every company, every government, right? But instead of simply banning it properly, right set of regulations which will grow this, you know, the alternate financial ecosystem would be a better bet for the government as well as for the users. 

Elsa Ramon  17:18

You just said that there is a need for crypto in India. And this is what I like to point out to our listeners who are brand new and just starting to learn about Bitcoin and blockchain technology in the United States, because I feel like here in the United States, the general consensus is why do we need this we have a banking system, we have a system that we have been using and we're okay with it. But on the other hand, you say the people in India need it. Why do you feel that the people in India need this type of technology and cryptocurrency 

Ashish Singhal  18:00

So, India is one country that can benefit out of crypto the most. The reason being that Indian infrastructure if you look at banks, if you look at, you know, any banking situation in India, right? It's not meant to support 1.3 billion people, right? And crypto being can be the savior for these unbanked people, right? crypto has a low onboarding has an easy to understand, you know, how things work, people who doesn't even have a bank account can now talk to each other and participate in this financial ecosystem. Right, which currently, they are not getting the opportunity for, because banks don't have the incentive to provide them this infrastructure. This infrastructure doesn't exist for a lot of people in India, right, which crypto can lead that front. So that is why it's very, very important to India. 

Elsa Ramon  18:57

And I think that's a message that people have Who? Bill unless you disagree. I feel like that's the message not just banking the unbanked because there are a lot of terms that people in this space that we're in throw around and that's one of them, banking the unbanked, but I don't I feel like you know, this is blockchain and crypto. And the the freedom it can give becomes more apparent, the more marginalized a community is, I feel like a lot of Americans don't feel, or many don't generally feel they're marginalized. They are in ways that maybe they don't understand. But in other countries like India and countries within Africa, there is a great understanding of what this type of technology and cryptocurrencies can do for people to give them the freedom to bank around the world. I don't think people understand that if think about it, if You didn't have a bank bill, if you didn't have a debit card or credit card, how could you travel about the country you can't book hotels and rent cars and, you know, transact on the internet and all these things without some kind of technology behind it to help you transfer that money around, even, you know, PayPal, and some of these other payment systems are giving people some of that freedom. But I don't think people here in the United States make that connection that Wow, I didn't think about that. There's a lot of people who don't can't even have a bank account. 

Ashish Singhal  20:32

Yeah. I think it's just about relating to the situation and in India, you can because almost 20% of the people are unbanked. So you feel that you know, so even even in the covert situation, right, so, how you distribute funds to them, how you make sure you know, the everyone is receiving in the right manner, crypto or cryptocurrencies the blockchain can help a lot, right. A lot of people have tried it. And have succeeded in this domain. And I feel that, you know, this is the future going forward, which is equal for all right, you rightly pointed out that, you know, the financial system is not equal equal for everyone. And I think that's very true in India as well. It works differently for different set of people and crypto being equal for all and providing, you know, the, the base of financial system to everyone equally is an amazing thing. 

Bill Deignan  21:29

So, you know, we all know that India has a wealth of smart, educated developers that probably get used more often than any one imagines in the development of the Internet, and protocols and applications for the whole world to use. To what degree is crypto does crypto represent in the eyes of developers an opportunity to serve India more than the rest of the world? 

Ashish Singhal  22:01

I think it's an, it holds an immense position at this point. So a lot of financial ecosystems are closed, right? In India to build our new financial service. It's a little difficult, right? You have to get a lot of licenses, you have to work with banks who have their own set of rules and regulations, which are different for different people. Right. Now, building something a financial service or anything on that sort is much easier to do it on a decentralized network, right? To be able to build global looking at, you know, the global market rather than the local market. So I think these two points, because of these two points, it in India, most of the developers that I've met, you know, in aetherium forums, or, you know, in hackathons. So that is their approach that it gives them that freedom to innovate, right? And India doesn't have you know, Have a lot of great developers, they have a lot of potential. And we are seeing that in action by looking at you know, how Indians have built a lot of good blockchain applications and are building companies for the world. And you know, not just India. So, yeah. Hope that answers your question. 

Bill Deignan  23:19

Well, you mentioned hackathon. I read in your profile. You're a hacker to the core.

Elsa Ramon  23:27

Tell us about that. You have a past.

Ashish Singhal  23:30

Yes. So let me give you a little brief on who I am. So I am a computer science engineer from NSI deli. I started my career in Microsoft and Amazon building a lot of their product in tech. I built Amazon's back end engine handling over 100,000 transactions a second have built amazon prime now which probably you guys have used, which is a one hour delivery service in us and many other countries. I was a lead for that. And Apart from all that I am a hacker at heart. So any hackathon that anyone can think of in India, including Sequoia had Google Code for India, Amazon Sujin. I would have wanted, right. So, so I like to build things fast and try to solve problems, right? So, in Google hackathon, we built a problem, which we face in India, regarding how do you how do you make sure in natural disaster crisis? How do you track people? And how do you make sure that you help the survivors, right, so we built a solution using drones and IR receivers, which word bank really liked, and, you know, took that decision and you know, to make actual product out of it, right. So I really like solving problems and and that's where my affinity to hackathons comes in, right to solve big problems.

Elsa Ramon  24:53

 I know some of the things you said I like to clarify for people listening because We're geared more towards people who are just starting to learn. And I don't ever want them to feel intimidated by some of the things we say. That's why I wanted to define and kind of highlight what being unbanked means. You talked about a theory M, which is another type of digital currency, a cryptocurrency. In your answer you were just talking about. And you also talked about you have such a rich background in technology. So for you, I would assume that it was a very natural jump to go to what you were doing go from what you were doing before to the cryptocurrency world and blockchain. You found it very fascinating, but what about the general feel of people in India?

Ashish Singhal  25:49

So I think people if you look, if you look at, you know, normal retail users who who are not developers, right? They have a different idea about cryptocurrency already. together for them, it's a tool to make gains to invest their money in and, you know, because of the market, probably invest a bit in cryptocurrencies and have gains through it, right. So for some other people, it's a tool to make salaries easier for it. For others, it makes make sense to accept payments and cryptocurrencies, as a new way of, you know, people paying them and, you know, availing their services, so it means obviously different for different people. For a developer community. It's more about freedom of building financial services out that not just financial in any field, but mostly people are building towards, you know, the new financial ecosystem. For normal retail users. It's about investment. It's also about usage of Bitcoin, you know, maybe in transferring money all over the world or you know, having business accepting payments from anywhere. Around the world without actually, you know, figuring out how to how to set up payment systems how to deal with banks, hand handling remittance, right. So it means different things for different people at this point. Does that make sense? Or do you want to do? Absolutely. Like I said, I feel like people see the value of blockchain and crypto, depending on how marginalized they feel they are, do you feel like the the government may be a little bit concerned or worried about a transition of power? 

Elsa Ramon  27:36

To the people of India, there's almost a billion and a half people in India you think about the kind of freedom this technology and currency can give people. It certainly takes it out of the hands of the government and banks and allows people to transact with one another without that middleman and fees and everything else that comes with it. You know, that's a that's a lot of power for one country to hold? Do you think that the Indian government is very much aware of that, and maybe not helping this along? as fat as it could be? 

Ashish Singhal  28:14

I think that's a fair argument. But to be honest, crypto is still a very, very small thing in the eyes of the government, right? It hasn't reached to a potential where it can be a threat to rupees or US dollars, right. And what we believe as innovators is that it's it's an alternate finance. It's not both can exist together. So it's not either or, or right. So it's about that, you know, both serving a set of users to make sure that their life become easy. Some people banks are the right way to go because they're running businesses, you know, complying with a lot of rules and regulations. But think about a vendor who is probably trying to sell you know, any anything which has Say outside India, providing a teacher providing educational lessons to people in us, right. So for them to start setting these things up becomes a little difficult and crypto provides an alternate for them to do it. Right. So, to answer your question, it hasn't become that threat yet. But obviously government had that in mind. And that is one of the reason that you know, they have banned crypto. The other reason that they banned crypto was because of the, you know, the the high volatility in the market. So they were looking after the users who are investing in crypto and probably losing money, right. So they were worried about that. So ban was mostly about that. But obviously, a part of it could be related to, you know, that they feel that it can threaten INR or the US dollar at some point in time. But, in my opinion, that time hasn't come yet, or that that time will never come and both systems Mix us together and flourish together. 

Bill Deignan  30:03

So I tend to and starting to get a sense that maybe India and the government of India is no different than what the United States is, or maybe even China, perhaps I think, in the crypto world, we tend to see a lot of sensationalism. And people want to get a headline that says, Oh, you know, India's banning crypto, and quite possibly in in, in India, you get the same sort of headlines and here that the United States is going to do you think that's the case where it's just maybe the government's aren't as concerned as the crypto journalists want you to think so. 

Ashish Singhal  30:41

So that's true to a lot. To a great extent, right? There aren't a lot of news coming out of crypto because crypto is very small. If you think about it today, right? It doesn't impact at a government level today. It does to an extent, right. And that extended to a very small. So obviously, the different news have different spins on the news, which which comes out, make it more sensational, make it more click worthy or, you know, the read worthy those articles, but that mostly that's not the case what is actually happening on the ground, right on the ground people are obviously concerned about user protection and you know, hundred different things, but it's not that sensational, or, you know, to be highlighted at you know that your India is banning crypto or us against aetherium altogether and things like that, right. So every government body is taking its own time to understand the technology, as well as to take the right steps for user protection, which is very, very important, right? If they need to ban it, and they think that it's a risk to users. They have the right to ban it, but after ban, you know, they need to understand the need for it. Need for a set of users and open it up by launching revelations rather than keeping it locked up? 

Elsa Ramon  32:08

So yeah. But I think, here at least my impression here in the United States beyond the sensationalism of some of the journalists and media, corporations, like you said that that need the views and the clicks and all of that. I think there is a general fear of leveling the playing field. Because we hear often hear people in this space say, it's going to be a paradigm shift. Well, what does that mean? And I think you clearly laid it out that it's going to give people freedom and a little bit more power, not necessarily eliminating the rupee or the dollar or the Euro, but maybe working in tandem, but I think there is a fear among banks. Central Banks, centralized banks, that that there's going to be a lot of money and a lot of power shifted to the people that they want to have the luxury of havng a monopoly on. 

Ashish Singhal  33:13

That's absolutely right. So, so that fear will obviously not go away. And it's a true fear as well, right? This is where things are heading. Either they can be in a weight on this technology, or, you know, block this technology, right? It's gonna happen sooner or later. So, so it's their choice. Obviously, when there are two financial ecosystems, money flows, flows through both right, and a single dominant ecosystem doesn't remain anymore, which we have today. Right. So obviously, they have for years into, you know, losing out a market share, but that also gives them an opportunity to innovate in that field, right. If they want to be part of it, they can still be part of it by innovating the same way. The other part People are doing. It's a same level field, as you said. So so they have to, you know, compete with the companies, what what they are building and still may not have a stronghold as they have in the current financial ecosystem. But as this is a level field, so they have equal right to come and innovate and build products for for this ecosystem as well.

Elsa Ramon  34:23

 So the product, you've built one of the many coins, which, yeah, tell us a litte bit about that.

Ashish Singhal  34:32

 So, we started with an idea of making crypto easier in 2016. So being a hacker, the coin search platform comes as a hack itself. So you would know that the price of crypto varies from one exchange to another because it's simply based on demand and supply. So similar to say a flight aggregator which basically aggregate different flight routes and different Flight providers into a single platform and let user choose you know, what is the best price and best route for them. Similarly, we built a platform which aggregate prices from various exchanges like finance a BDC okay x change now change Li, and let us know what is the price going on on different exchanges. We do deep integration with these exchanges. So, people can, you know, convert these crypto directly on our website without leaving the website. So they get the best rate and they get the ease of use that they are looking for.

Elsa Ramon  35:32

Right. So this is me just just to give people something to relate to. A cryptocurrency exchange is like an exchange you would use if you were going to another country and wanted to exchange your native money for that country's native money. It's similar it's similar with cryptocurrencies you want to trade your native money for cryptocurrency or digital currency of your choice?

Ashish Singhal  35:57

Yes, and since Different exchange rate would exist whenever you are exchanging with someone, someone may agree that okay one US dollar equal 200 INR, someone may agree that okay one US dollar equal 210 Ayana, so, what we do is we aggregate all these rates from different exchanges and give user the benefit of getting the best rate out of it right. So, we suggest user that okay this is this use this exchange is giving you a rate of 100 this exchange is giving you a rate of 110 and you can come and choose the one that you want to write and user can choose the best trade and start converting their cryptocurrencies. 

Bill Deignan  36:40

So, in like so, let's say I go to buy Nance and deposit some Bitcoin, which then allows me to exchange that for another for aetherium. And maybe I trade that back and forth and try to make some money. So, but I'm actually you know, I'm gonna Essentially allowing finance to hold my cryptocurrency so they really have my money and it can be, you know, possibly hacked and taken away. And as the way with many exchanges is if I'm looking at your situation it almost looks as like am I just putting money in an account on yours? Are you custody custody? So yeah, yeah, so we had a noncustodial exchange. So when you come to the platform, you say you want to convert Bitcoin to aetherium. We asked you your aetherium address, you transfer your Bitcoin to us and aetherium it gets converted to aetherium and transferred back to your wallet. Your wallet could be a hardware wallet, custody wallet or an exchange wallet or any Wallet for that matters, right. So coin switch never keeps your funds. We keep your funds for a very short period in time in which the conversion is happening. So user get that security because they never have to trust an exchange to keep their funds 

Elsa Ramon  38:00

Okay, so new people listening by the way, one of the sayings in the crypto community, not your keys, not your coins, basically that that kind of broken down means if you don't offload your cryptocurrency onto a hard wallet you know called they call it cold storage offline you know you're susceptible to hacks but the difference is I just want to explain for people who are new to this because all these terms get thrown around. people worry one of the biggest questions Bill and I get asked a lot when we're out shooting on location is is the safe you know, I can Bitcoin and these others be hacked well, Bitcoin itself and the blockchain for Bitcoin hasn't been hacked, but your your funds are only as safe as the exchange is, if you're relying on the exchange to hold on to your funds like a bank. So you know, yes, people hear of these hacks. But a lot of times it's the exchanges that are holding your crypto that get hacked not the actual cryptocurrency like Bitcoin itself, that gets hacked. So I apologize. I'd like to clarify for people so they don't feel left out of the conference. 

Bill Deignan  39:13

Sure. Yeah. But also, you know, Binance is the ability to like, like, I'm looking at your site Coinswitch, where I can see that I can easily say, I can put in, you know, hey, I've got point five Bitcoins. So you know, for those of you watching the livestream, you can see me doing this on screen. And it gives me the opportunity to exchange that into aetherium. And it tells me how many a theorem I would get, but it also tells me how many a theorem I would get from any of a number of different exchanges. So I'm the one that chooses that exchange, I want to buy it on or is the Coinswitch that chooses that? .

Ashish Singhal  39:50

Yeah. So we recommend you an exchange based on price and the reliability of that exchange. But ultimately, you are the one the user is the one who gets to choose which exchange they want. They may have some affinity to some exchange or, you know, the order execution might be faster for some exchange that they want to go with. Right? So it's up to user to decise what they want. 

Bill Deignan  40:13

So in like in Binance, I can go look at trading pairs and charts and all of those types of things, you're not really offering that we are not. 

Ashish Singhal  40:22

So we are very simple. We are meant for retail users, who don't want to go through the complexity of you know, trade, understanding fades, understanding order books and ascending charts, who simply want to acquire Bitcoin or acquire any any currencies, right. So, we simply let you let the users have a simplest way to get cryptocurrencies, without actually, you know, holding their funds and providing them the security and the speed that they need to acquire any cryptocurrency for that matter. 

Bill Deignan  40:56

Does this allow for what they call arbitrage where people are trying to Quickly go back. And so between exchanges. 

Ashish Singhal  41:03

So currently it does not. And we do have. So we already split orders across exchanges, making sure that the user always get the best rate. Right. So the heavy lifting is done by the platform, making sure that user is always getting the best rate. But obviously, it's meant for retail users who don't understand the complexity of arbitrage or even, you know, the complexity of trade and order books, like so. 

Bill Deignan  41:32

So I guess, you know, that I had to wrap my mind around it a bit, because I'm used to sort of having to put crypto on an exchange to use it. In this case, you're just you're taking the funds momentarily, and then doing the transaction among many different exchanges. You're kind of a middleman in a way. 

Ashish Singhal  41:49

Yes, exactly. So he got like a broker in front of all these exchanges that you would ideally go and use directly. 

Bill Deignan  41:57

Mm hm.

Elsa Ramon  41:59

Are there other That's very different than most exchanges out there Ashish, right, because most exchanges you trade your native currency for whatever cryptocurrency or digital currency you want, and that exchange can hold it for you in a wallet. You don't do that and that's a demographic difference. 

Ashish Singhal  42:21

So we do that as well. So because coin switch is a global brand, so in except India, you can only trade one crypto to another but in India, we have a platform called coin switch Kobe. You can visit coin switch.co slash iron to to have a look at it. But so how it works is it's exactly like Coinbase where you can you know, buy any cryptocurrency with rupees, right. And we support hundred plus cryptocurrencies and you can easily buy anything that you want with single click right so you still on even on that platform, you don't have to worry about audiobooks, trade books. So you can simply go and download the app and deposit INR into it and buy any cryptocurrency that you want. So we just launched it a month back and yeah. So so we are progressing. So after the RBI ban was lifted, this was a product in India. 

Elsa Ramon  43:18

And that was the government ban you were talking about earlier? Yes, yes  for India, okay. 

Bill Deignan  43:24

So, it looks like an easy way to buy a lot of different tokens because I

Elsa Ramon  43:30

So Bill's shopping.

Bill Deignan  43:31

Yeah. Not that I'm ready. I'm not recommending anything and, you know, everyone knows we're not financial advisors, 

Elsa Ramon  43:40

Of course, but I, you know, just you mentioned Coinbase and Binance just for the new people listening those are other very, very popular exchanges where you can buy multiple different types of digital currency, cryptocurrencies, and, you know, store it there or online. offloaded onto your own little cold storage, which we explained earlier your own little, almost like a little hard drive of your money. So while bill shopping, I wanted to ask you as she so when you first heard about Bitcoin and blockchain technology, I mean, you were probably one of the first people in the world to hear about this emerging technology before the rest of us because you were already a developer, you are already in that world sort of. So I would imagine the transition was pretty easy for you, but when you first heard about it, what were some of your first thoughts?

Ashish Singhal  44:42

So, in 2013, when I read the Bitcoin white paper, I was totally blown away and that, you know, this can be done as well, because from the technical standpoint, that was a standout, right? It has never been done before and somebody has figured out a way to, you know, have a distributed ledger. and verify transactions on a distributed ledger. Right? So, so that was an amazing Mind blown moment. Obviously, I couldn't do anything with it at that time because a lot of technology was built, but there was no interface that was there or there were no easy way to acquire Bitcoin or you know, trade bitcoins in India at that point, right. So, it took a little while then Indian, you know, a lot of exchanges came up in India. And in you know, later we also decided to build an exchange with a single focus in mind the simplicity, right, see, even I started coin switch in 2017, my goal was very similar, that I want to make a platform where even my parents can buy and sell cryptocurrencies. Right. So, last year, last week, so two weeks back when we launched our platform, where you can buy cryptocurrencies in China, my mother, who is 65 years of age, bought her first Bitcoin, so that was the realest, proud moment that you know I could ever have. And it basically proved it. All my years of hard work was proven right at that point that, you know, I built what I set out to do, right. And it's not easy to make it that simple. So, so the team worked really, really hard. I am not sure if I'm able to explain the gravity of, you know, fulfilling that wish that I had three years ago, but we are really excited to be in India now providing a service where people can buy and sell cryptocurrencies, with such an ease that even my mother can buy crypto. 

Bill Deignan  46:41

So I read an interview that you did, but I can't remember where that you try to focus on only one sort of metric for a goal for your team. So apparently, your goal was, if my, if my 65 year old mother can buy that's the goal.

Ashish Singhal  46:57

You know, so when we set out to do it You know, bitcoins, which everyone says that they want to build a simple product, right? But my team asked me, How do you measure the simplicity of your product? What is your matrix, right? And investors asked me what is the matrix to building a simplistic product? I said, the matrix is the day my parents are able to buy it. That day, I would know that I have made a good product.

Elsa Ramon  47:22

But I cannot tell you I cannot emphasize enough I have. I've been you know, I consider myself still a newbie a little under two years in this space. I cannot get my parents who are also 65 and my dad who is in his 70s to do it. And I mean, it can I mean, I could hand it to them ready to just push a button and they won't do it, you know, but I guess we would say here in the united states that if you can get your Boomer parents to do it, then you know you have succeeded. Yeah, I'm not it. I'm not saying that. I'm Not a millennial or I'm Gen X, you know, but so even if I'll throw myself in there saying even if a Gen X er can do it, and a boomer can do it, you guys can do it. 

Ashish Singhal  48:12

Yeah. So that was the idea behind Coinswitch. And I think with our launch in India of Coinswitch Kobe's, we are making the right strides. Obviously, we have a long, long way to go and the regulations in India need to support us. And a lot of users need to support us but I think we are on the right track, making crypto easy and being just that single goal and you know, making a focus on our product, making sure that we provide the best usable product in India to be able to get into cryptocurrencies, and as you all know, once you get into cryptocurrencies there, the opportunities are endless, right. So, yeah, so we want it to be the gateway of, you know, people getting into crypto in India, and hopefully we would be there very soon. 

Bill Deignan  49:01

So let's talk about CruxPay then. Yeah, I like that. And I think there are other blockchains maybe trying to do the same thing but you make it more of instead of exchanging keys, these super long strings of letters and numbers that are difficult to identify, if you entering them correctly, yours is more like an email like a Venmo. 

Ashish Singhal  49:26

Yes. So, what we have done is, so, we have all faced this issue that you know, whenever we are transferring funds to friends or exchanges, we need to verify addresses time and again, right? 

Elsa Ramon  49:39

Because these are not money to somebody in a bank account, you need to know their bank account their bank account, exact same things. So with a wallet, you need to know their wallet number, but these numbers tend to be a huge long string of letters and numbers combined and you'll never memorize it. 

Ashish Singhal  49:57

Yes, exactly. And and with crypto, the problem means that transactions are irreversible. It's not a problem. It's a feature. But it's a problem for people who miss out, you know, or miss type these addresses and lose the funds forever. Right? So what we do is we provide human readable IDs, which can be binded to all your addresses. So instead of exchanging addresses or Bitcoin, aetherium, and anything with your friends and exchanges, you can simply use an ID forever, right? And all the heavy lifting is done by this ID resolving addresses, making sure it's going to the right one. It's owned by you. It's not hackable. And so all the security and you know, the user intractability is taken care of by this ID. So in the crypto ecosystem, if you have this ID, that's all you need.

Bill Deignan  50:48

So who owns who sort of assigns the ID Are you guys the clearinghouse for this? It's kind of lts like a domain name?

Ashish Singhal  50:57

Exactly like a domain name. And what we do is we title With wallets and wallet, you can go to any of our partner wallets and create a cracks ID. And basically you can type a name figure out which is available which is not and choose the on  that you'd like. Right?

Bill Deignan  51:14

 so I can be it could be like Superman at C R U X. 

Ashish Singhal  51:20

Yeah. So as so any any thing that you like, which is available, you can choose that and start using it. 

Elsa Ramon  51:28

So imagine this everybody I mean, if you're listening, your email could be a way to get paid. You can send your email is this is this am I getting this right? You Send your email to someone saying you pay me at this address and they can send you the money back in your email and it's here you have it. 

Ashish Singhal  51:49

Yeah. So instead of just sharing addresses which can change over time and you know, the kind of wallets you're using, or or any anything that for that matter, right So you might demand different currencies at different points from different users. So you have to change those addresses. And those are confusing as well. Right? Instead of that, now you can share a single ID with anyone that you want. And they can send and receive funds using this ID . Very simply. 

Bill Deignan  52:16

So yeah, so alright, so I'm familiar with like dot crypto and dot zil. And these sort of domain names that also secured our own versions of these things, although we haven't really used them. So I, if I'm understanding if I'm understood, maybe not but that's what I'm trying to get to. is if I use dot zil and I give somebody my you know, I'm Bill dot zil. For instance, shove in, they send that money to that dot zil address, I have to deal only with that dot zil address, to get maybe only a certain type of currency exchanged. Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, but With Crux pay is it that all I need is a bill at correct Crux. Yeah. Basically, I could say I want some, some, some aetherium sent to my Devi wallet or I want some Monaro sent to you know, from that wallet to a another wallet, I may have been using just that address, I could do and of those things. 

Ashish Singhal  53:28

So, these addresses are are these names CRUX IDs are created on wallets so they are wallet specific. So say if you are creating a wallet, your tax ID on DB wallet, then all the addresses in your DB wallet are linked to that Rex ID. So whenever you say you're sharing with to transfer Bitcoin, it will always reach your dv wallet. If you're using my Mineiro to create tax id then all the addresses and my Manila wallet would be linked to your tax ID. So it's wallet dependent today. We would have future releases where you can, you know, even interlink wallets together. So that if you are using five different wallets, you can use a single ID to send and receive funds across, right?

Elsa Ramon  54:11

So it like having a bunch of bank accounts all together in one and you just use one ID to be able to choose which account in your wallet, you want that money to go or that crypto to go to. 

Ashish Singhal  54:23

Yeah, so something like that. And for now, the the idea is it works like a bank account. So similarly, how you show, you know, show your bank account details and you receive the funds in that particular bank. Similar to that you share the cracks ID and you receive the funds in that particular wallet itself. Right. So you can create two wallets safe one for business and one for personal and try sharing different IDs to different people to receive money in different wallets. Right. And the good part about Rackspace is instead of just sharing ideas, you can send payment request to others. So I can request you a payment in your wallet, there would be a pop up, similar to how it's explained on the hair, you will basically receive a payment request where you simply have to, you know, say accept or deny. If you say accept the payment would be deducted from your wallet and will automatically go to the requester. Right? So you don't even have to deal with the complexity of adding anyone's cracks ID into your wallet. Or, you know, typing and anything like that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So it works like Venmo or PayPal, where you simply request every request and you simply click pay or not pay and all is done in the background. 

Bill Deignan  55:44

Is dot Crux like Like for instance, dot .zil dot .crypto? I think there's a dot .EOS are various numbers. They can act as actual web addresses that I could build a website on there. Could it actually be summed up the rest of the world wide web? Is  .crux like that? 

Ashish Singhal  56:05

No. So we are simply a naming and uphold payment service. We don't deal with domain name service right now. 

Elsa Ramon  56:13

Okay. So this is important and I want to explain to the people who are learning why. Two years ago when I first started learning about Bitcoin and blockchain, there were a bunch of different exchanges. I didn't know where to start, which is the best one, which one is trustworthy, because early on in this game, there were people who put money in exchanges and bought crypto and kept their money there and then I disappeared people there were scams, just as there are scams in the stock market and other places where money is flowing and there's a lot of money to be made. Yes, there are scams too, but I started learning that there's a bunch of different exchange choices I could choose from to buy my crypto But then the problem was on certain exchanges, you could only buy certain kryptos. Other exchanges, you could only buy certain kryptos you not every exchange has every single crypto. So I found myself as a new person, a newbie, going to maybe buy Nance to buy this crypto that was available there. But going to coin base exchange and buying a crypto over here because it's not offered on by Nance and vice versa. So it's this is important for people to understand that if everything is all in one place, it makes it so much easier, less stressful and less fear that you're going to click a wrong button and your funds are going to go out somewhere, you know, into the universe. Because you're dealing with different exchanges and trying to remember well, I've got this money here on this exchange and this money here on this exchange. This kind of puts it all together under one roof. under one umbrella, so that you don't have to think as much and worry as much that you're doing the right thing Am I is that kind of the idea behind this? 

Ashish Singhal  58:09

That is the kind of idea behind it that, you know, at later point, when you're transferring from funds from one exchange to another, you never have to worry about what those addresses look like, right? And you should be able to use a single human readable ID to be able to transfer funds from anywhere that you want. Right? And that becomes your identity in the crypto ecosystem, right? If your friends want to send new funds, if you want to send, you know, funds to some other, you can use simple human readable IDs so that you don't repeat. You don't make the mistakes, right of losing your funds. Sending to a wrong address or, or sending a wrong kind of fund to to a different wallet altogether. 

Bill Deignan  58:50

Right. So so so you're a hacker. Hacker to the core. What do you bring to this, especially when building something that you want people to trust and know that they're not going to lose their money or get hacked and get their funds stolen? What do you what do you actually what goes through your mind? What tools do you employ? How do you approach? How do you build that unhackable system?

Ashish Singhal  59:21

That doesn't exist? The actual unhackable system, but you can make it suddenly harder to hack a system, right? So you take basic measures, you know, securing your servers, securing your DNS securing your access, making sure you have multiple firewalls and different you know, security access you you make sure so there are a lot of technical details that goes into securing a system and you make sure that you do regular pen testing you get, you know, regular pen testing done on your systems, making sure that you are aware of the vulnerabilities and you constantly are Fixing, right? It's almost impossible to build a system which cannot be hacked, if the hacker is, you know, good enough and persistent enough that any systems can be, right. But what we can do is we can just step stay a step ahead of hackers, and making sure that our security is at the top level. And we are aware of the issues and we are constantly fixing issues and, you know, testing our system again and again. 

Bill Deignan  60:32

So by having a single or so if I have a Crux pay address in an aetherium wallet and a Crux pay address in a Devi wallet, are they the same address? 

Ashish Singhal  60:44

They are different addresses as long as it's not? 

Bill Deignan  60:47

Yeah. It's not as if someone knows your one. Like someone could find my email and get access to various things. It's not like they wipe you out completely if you have things distributed. 

Ashish Singhal  60:59

So if you're wallets were created using different 12 words seed or 24 word seed, then obviously those two are separate wallets altogether would have separate tracks IDs all together, right? So nobody can know any of those. If they were used. If they were used to the 12 word seed was used, the same tool would use what used to create these wallets, then obviously both would be same. The crux IDs would still be different, but pointing to the same wallet. 

Bill Deignan  61:26

And if you're using a wallet that can have multiple cryptocurrencies in it, then if you have everything in that wallet, then they could have access if they can hack your wallet

Elsa Ramon  61:39

Yes, yes. Yeah. And by the way, see, just to explain where I'm just trying to hold hands, you know, do some hand holding because I needed this when I was learning about it. At the seed word is when you create a wallet you're given ay ay, there's been a 12 word before 24 you know, you write these down or put them away where they cannot be found. Because if you lose your device or you forget your password for your digital wallet, if you have these seed words, you can recover it if you don't have the seed words Yeah, which is you know, another thing I think that scares people at this stage of the game that, you know, if they don't have the seed words, they could potentially lose what they have in that particular wallet that those seed words belong to. So maybe one day in the future we'll get past that to to make adoption a little bit easier. 

Bill Deignan  62:41

Well as a as a white hat hacker, what what would be your best advice to people? You know, knowing what's what people are capable of doing? That's not good out there. What would you say are the three types Things a person should be doing to make sure that they've not vulnerable. 

Ashish Singhal  63:04

So make sure that you know you're constantly changing your passwords for your emails, your any account that has sensitive information. always assume that your email is already hacked. So don't keep sensitive information there. Use, you know, LastPass or, you know, services like that to store and keep on rotating your passwords for any platform that you work on. If you have to invert seed or 24 word seed, please keep don't keep them online. Always keep them offline, printed on a paper, probably at your home. And, you know, there are other things that you know high advanced users can can use, which I'm not going to go into but always assume that you know your email, email is hacked and don't keep sensitive information there. I think that is the you know, the easiest way for for people to get into, and you know, get the information out, right? So keep it offline, keep it secure create a wallets, which provide that functionality and always keep your funds there. Right? If it's not online, it cannot be hacked. As simple as that. 

Bill Deignan  64:16

So like if I'm like somebody might say, it's also my say, hey, Bill, I need the password that the username and password for this account we share or something, you know, I'm the type that I would always just, you know, send her the username by email and text her the password. Am I even Am I just wasting my time doing that?

Ashish Singhal  64:38

So let's not, yeah, so that's a pretty easy way to get hacked. Because we have to assume that you know, hacking these devices or hacking email ids is very easy, because a lot of people don't have second auth you know, two Fs enabled on emails and all that and we use obviously regular easy to guess passwords, which which other people can simply with some technology can guess and hack, right? So always use services like LastPass or any other password sharing tool to have that important information pass through and always enable to FA if you can, on your accounts, making sure that they are secure.

Bill Deignan  65:25

What what are you recommend  for 2FA ?

Ashish Singhal  65:27

Yeah. So I, yeah, so 2FA are different for different platform. Ultimately, it's a it's a code that you need to scan and keep somewhere right, which regularly generates every 60 seconds generates a password for you, right? So you can go authenticator is an authenticator app that generates a passcode it went like you said, Every 2030 seconds, you would use to log in that your accou

Elsa Ramon  65:56

Like Google Authenticator is synced with. So it's unique to your device.

Ashish Singhal  66:01

Yes. So it's unique to your device and unique to your account. So it's linked to both. And that makes sure that, you know, hackers can never access because in this short amount of time, they can never guess that to FA password, right? So you need to make sure. So securing that also is very, very important. Make sure your to FA seed is not shared with anyone and is secure offline, rather than, you know, securing them on online. Right. So if you take these few measures, I think I think a lot of hacking that happens today can be avoided. 

Elsa Ramon  66:38

Oh, absolutely. Speaking from experience, I was SIM swapped last year and so I learned the hard way about Yeah, they'll remember I had to learn the hard way. I was SIM swapped twice. And I thought I took all the precautions but I had to learn the hard way that you know, I needed the Google authenticator app and all these extra layers of security. So don't find out the hard way. You know, look into that. But this look, don't take it from me as she is the hacker. So this is an advice. This is advice from a hacker. So take his advice on this and a lot of other things that he's talked about during our podcast today. Asheesh, Bill and I can't thank you enough for being with us today on the podcast to help us walk newbies through some of the terms and that we use and and ways to learn about how to become a little more crypto savvy. 

Ashish Singhal  67:38

It was a pleasure being here and it was really great, you know, interacting with Bill and you Elsa.

Elsa Ramon  67:44

Yeah. Hey, oh, by the way, CruxPay and CoinSwitch will have your information Ashish in our show notes by the way for people who are interested in doing more research

Bill Deignan  67:56

 You want to Bill Well, you know, we're This is gonna be our fifth episode. This is our first international guest, you know?

Elsa Ramon  68:08

 I'm so glad to signal held up the entire time. I mean, that's all we can ask for these days.

Ashish Singhal  68:13

. Right? Exactly.

Elsa Ramon  68:16

All right. Thank you so much. Enjoy your Friday night. It is Friday evening where you are and in India and I know you can't go out you mentioned because of COVID and it's a rainy night. So please enjoy a wonderful night at home. And again, 

Ashish Singhal  68:31

Thank you so much. Thanks a lot, Bye.

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